Javad Triumph (Land Surveying)
by Pat Caughey, Friday, July 26, 2013, 06:45 (136 days ago)
We are seriously thinking of buying a couple Triumph receivers, though some of our field guys have some reservations about going with Javad, mainly because of the lack of dealers in our area. As we plan on using a Carlson data collector with them, which we would get from a local dealer. Would any users of the Triumph's like to give me their opinion of them?
Just search JAVAD on here and you will find many discussions related to the same question. I believe many that use JAVAD love it. Can't argue with the technology that's for sure.
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by David Livingstone, Macomb Illinois, Friday, July 26, 2013, 08:12 (136 days ago)
Javad always seems to make quality stuff. Topcon bought him out several years ago, all of the early Topcon stuff was a 100% Javad design as far as I know, which would mainly be the Hipers. He is also the one the started the Glonass craze. It seems most makers thought that was a bad idea until they found out it worked. I also used his post processing software and its still the only thing I have for post processing, its called Pinnacle. I rarely use it and to be honest it kind of sucked but once I figured it out, it worked fine.
I have no first hand knowledge of his new stuff, but I have no reason to believe it would be anything except on the leading edge. Javad always seemed a little weird on the marketing thing. He also got caught up in the entire Lightsquared fiasco when he came out with a way to filter it out. A lot of surveyors thought he sold them out, but hey, he figured out a way around it. He is still trying to explain that with his twenty page glossy ads he puts in the surveyors mags.
AKA Dodge Man
Topcon bought him out several years ago, all of the early Topcon stuff was a 100% Javad design as far as I know, which would mainly be the Hipers.
Javad made the Hipers. Prior to that Topcon used receivers made by Trimble (SX1/DX1), AOA (a rebranded Rascal) and Ashtech (a rebranded Z-12).
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The question of "solutions" to LightSquared I guess are easy to state as the final buildout was never really decided upon and never happened. Kinda like claiming that I have a solution to keep California from sliding into the ocean.
All kidding aside, even LightSquared backed off claims that the upper 10MHz had been "solved".
I have no qualms about the equipment; excellent performance. But if someone is going to buy a box and do a mix'n-match for software and integration then there are a lot of great 3rd party boxes out there. Good gear... but should we have amnesia about the past few years questionable moves?
What if a manufacturer advocated for something that would cause all users to have to do some kind of uprgrade; would we reward them by buying thier upgrade? Kind like someone advocating for legalization of Trojan Viruses and then saying "hey, I have anti-virus software, aren't I a hero?"
It is a shame that many decades of outstanding innovation in GNSS may be tarnished by some questionable moves (perhaps ernest but misguided). maybe they get a get-outta-trouble-free card considering the many decades of innovation, but as long as there are excellent alternatives there are many who will not be fogetting aboutthat indcident any time soon. Maybe a big glossy multipage apology might help.
Oh, and if anyone says that LightSquared would (have been) the salvation of all mankind I'd love to share the FCC docs that revealed otherwise; like the $10,000 Gigabyte memo.... Bullet dodged...
Somehow, I don't think Lightsquared is gone. They are morphed, and due to arrive, with a new name, and new specs. Like the radio switch that ALREADY happened. What's up with that? The change was not a gain for the surveying community. Nobody asked us. Who did that? We got a loss in range, and they got part of our band width. Somethin's up, and it ain't in our favor.
Surveying is more than a Job----it is a passion to provide a foundation for future generation, that is beyond reproach.
It ain't over, as long as spectral carpetbaggers are seeking a windfall by turning low-value satelite spectrum into terrestrial gold (without having to go through the upcoming spectrum auction process). Remember, no one "owns" those ariwaves, they are "owned" by the public and the FCC merely grants permits for specific uses. The rhetoric of "poaching" was a complete mischaracterization.
It may not be LightSquared as a company that keeps that rolling, but it will definitely rise agian; especially with some big name telecomm players waiting to pick up the peices.
The push for reciever standards has quieted down to the chirping of crickets. Will there be changes? Maybe, but not on a rapid timeline rammed down our throats which would have been the equivalent of pick-pocketing our watch and selling it back to us.
Stay thirsty (for fairness) my friends...
Talk to Shawn Billings...
I sent you an e-mail with a pdf of an article from The American Surveyor regarding a review of the Triumph by Shawn Billings, an East Texas Surveyor and a member here. It was dated April/May 2009. Give a shout out to him and ask his perspective. I would want to know if it would collect static while running on an assumed coordinate ("here") basis like the old Javad/Topcon Legacy(s). The Sokkias you used to run, and I now have don't and that's a PITA.
-Animus hominis est anima scripti
-my Indian name is "Walks Many Fences"
Talk to Shawn Billings...
by Shawn Billings, Friday, July 26, 2013, 14:21 (136 days ago)
those Triumph receivers are still the most precise receivers I've used to date. with Carlson data collection, you've got a wicked combination on your hands. they are static capable. I saw the inside of the Triumph case on a visit to Javad's facility in June. I had no idea just how solid they were. The entire bottom half is a magnesium tub. substantially over-built.
We actually went another direction last year when we finally bought RTK for our company because of a great deal on a demo setup.
by Sat Al, Friday, July 26, 2013, 17:50 (136 days ago)
I disagree. Some work better than others.
Firmware/software is a big part of that equation.
Reliability is also a major consideration.
If it works well and is reliable, you shouldn't need much local support.
I think you are looking at this wrong. Everyone's equipment works!
IMHO the first consideration is SERVICE! Buy from the best / close by dealer that can support you when you need help.
The second consideration is software that processes data.
by Dave Karoly, Sacramento, CA, Friday, July 26, 2013, 18:20 (136 days ago)
I had a mixed experience with the Javad equipment in the 1990s. A lot of the cables looked homemade. Maybe his stuff is better today, I don't know.
Same with Topcon. Topcon controllers in particular are troublesome. 5 minutes here and 5 minutes there and it starts adding up not to mention my aggravation factor.
I've had good experience with the Trimble equipment. My experience has been it is the most reliable as far as just working when you need it to without struggling with the equipment.
"I took a trip on a train and I thought about you." -Johnny Mercer
by Shawn Billings, Friday, July 26, 2013, 20:51 (136 days ago)
When I was speaking of service, I was not thinking in terms of repair, but rather in terms of "hold my hand". I know that when we bought our Trimble stuff several years ago there were a couple of times I was really glad my very knowledgeable dealer was only an hour away. Some service was phone, but a couple of times it was take the unit & controller to him to find out what we did wrong.
by Shawn Billings, Saturday, July 27, 2013, 05:31 (135 days ago)
Interesting. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer on this. Phone support, videos, and tutorials have always sufficed for me except when we bought our first robot. We got a couple hour demo with our first robot. I guess I'm conditioned to figuring things out now. Most of the product reviews I do, I get a box or three via ups and spend a couple hours figuring out how it goes together. Seldom a need for outside help. But I totally get the need for support especially on big ticket items.
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by Pat Caughey, Saturday, July 27, 2013, 08:48 (135 days ago)
Thanks every one for their response. I agree that service is important, but in this case I feel that the main thing that can/will go wrong are errors with the data collection, either human error with the data collector, or the data collector itself. That is why I will be getting the Carlson data collector from my local dealer with whom I have been doing business with since 1985, and who has always been there to help out when needed. (Here is a shout out to Bob Miller!)
The first GPS system that I was involved with buying was a Javad system in 2000, and we still use a variation of that system (Legacy E) today, though the name plate says Topcon. It remains being the most reliable and repeatable system I have ever used. My field guys, which sometimes includes me, just hate having a backpack to haul around, and the Legacys (what is the plural of Legacy?) hate the 100° temperatures we get around here. My plan is to combine the old Legacys as base units, and the Triumphs as rovers. I will put the base Legacy in a small ice chest with ice packs to keep it cool. That way we will have two systems with the radio power of a 38 watt base radio along with what I hope to be the best rovers available. And the best part is the 2 Triumphs and a new base radio (we have an ADL, but need the second which will probably be from Javad since Pac Crest has been bought out by Trimble, and as anybody who knows me knows, I hate Trimble) will only cost a little more than one rover from any of the big 3 (Topcon, Trimble or Leica).
I appreciate everyone's responses, and from them I see no reason not to go with the Triumphs. I will continue to have the support I need from my local dealer with the Carlson data collectors, and if anything does go wrong with the Triumphs, overnight shipping gets it in for repair the next day.
I use Leica and like the product! That said, there are likely many smaller players out there that build solid equipment, the tightest integration comes when your TS, GPS and DC are all from the same place IMO and that is high on my list of considerations when I think of new equipment.
Javad may build good hardware, BUT since he left Trimble years ago, it seems the firmware/software has had a lot of complaints (whatever brand he was selling at any given time), some even in this thread, if you can integrate into 3rd party DC/software successfully, then I think it wouldn't be a bad choice.
Not yet mentioned in this thread is the Altus brand and if I was to buy something other than my current brand is one I would check out in addition to any units built by NovAtel, however their products are more backpack or base station types so not very user friendly in the days of all on the pole rovers, nonetheless very solid receivers from my experience.
Again, the problem with any receiver on the fringes as it were is how tight is the integration with whatever 3rd party DC and software you plan on using, there is more to the equation than who builds the best hardware. I would say the king of the integration heap is Leica and Trimble, Topcon may be in there too, BUT I have no personal experience there, everybody else is on the next level down in my opinion.
One of my Dealers in SoCal, Ventura County, just provided a RTK Sales demo to one of his long time client/customers. Altus APS-3 vs, HGNSS-S320, both RTK Rovers using seperate HH DC's with Carlson SW SurvCE; the S320 RTK Fixed in a lot of places the Altus stayed RTK Float, each RTK system used their own internal 1 watt radios, the Altus APS-3 RTK Rover dropped the RTK Base TX pretty quickly, not much RTK radio range. The S320 RTK Rover never lost the radio, kept the RTK Fix during the RTK Demo. At HGNSS we design and manufacture all of our own GNSS boards and GNSS Antennas. Some GNSS Boards still perform better than others...
Bob, good to know, head to head competition is a good thing
I agree that measurement engines vary a lot, they all work under good conditions (or some of them wouldn't sell at all), however there is a lot of difference after that and I have said that before on this board.
I post process a lot of mixed data from airborne flights and it is unbelievable how poor of performance some receivers have, just because you sell a lot of units doesn't necessarily mean you have the best hardware, more likely the best marketing department
I was a Leica surveyor for the past 20 plus years. Unfortunately I have had some real problems with Leica and their response to problems with faulty equipment. I recently had the opportunity to use an Altus unit and put it up against a Leica GS09 in the field. I always thought that Leica was the best, Trimble followed, Topcon, Sokkia next and the no-names on down. After seeing the Altus outperform the Leica side by side I feel kind of foolish. I used Javad extensively while working for another surveyor many years ago and would have purchased them if I hadn’t been so prejudiced about Leica products.
I am planning on looking at Javad first next GPS purchase.
BB, thanks for the report! Since above we see that the HGNSS-S320 smoked the Altus APS-3, they both must smoke the Leica
I will still say that there is a lot of differences between quality of the raw measurements brand to brand AND that makes a difference in tough conditions, while Leica has been solid for me over the years, there are obviously some solid smaller players in the game AND it would be prudent to check them all before buying, you just never know if you always buy what you always have or what everyone else says to buy.
The reported performance of the HGNSS-S320 and the Altus APS-3 vs. a major brand from real world tests are the stuff you won't find in the glossy brochures, thanks to both you and Bob for sharing.
by The Pseudo Ranger, Sunday, July 28, 2013, 14:48 (134 days ago)
Since my Ranger went out, I've been looking at Carlson as a replacement to TDS, and strongly considering it. The list of GPS receivers that Carlson will work with is very impressive. Carlson pretty much includes every company I've ever heard of or seen an ad for. TDS does the main players (Topcon, Trimble, Leica, SP, and some old Ashtech), but I don't think they even support JAVAD. I have the latest TDS Survey pro, and I'm pretty sure JAVAD is not there. If you are Carlson user, you have many more options.
I don't know why all you guys respond so big on support. I've had to use a lot of support over the years and have spent thousands shipping back and forth the many flavors of manufacturers. Almost everyone out there has to "ship it in" when something goes wrong. Trimble, Leica or Javad. Unless you are the lucky few that lives where there is a service center. Well I now have 3 Javad units: two Triumphs-1's and one Delta for a network base. Of the 16+ years in surveying the only thing I can say I don't ever worry about now is my Javad receivers. And if/when the Javad goes down. I will ship them to California for repair.
(I still have a Trimble S3 for sell if anyone is interested.....)
I started with Microsurvey for data collection and embedded cad for office and have switched to Carlson data and office. If I can get back to a Leica robot with carlson data I will have the complete package. So if you are worried about Javad, worry no more. It will work better than the other two and Javad stays out of your pocket after purchase. Unlike Leica and Trimble. Firmware is free! Oh and if you put up a network base the ntrip software is free also. Unlike the others.
Oh and Karoly. 90's cables..Give me a break. 90's era GPS sucked as much as the cables. I cannot tell the difference between Leica/Trimble or Javad's cables now. Same quality in my opinion.