1. How to get logged in to the NEW SurveyorConnect.com!

    You should have received a password reset notification at the email address you used to register your account here. If you don't receive the email, please check your spam or junk folder. If you still don't have it, please click the following link to manually reset your password. If all else fails, send us an email at support@surveyorconnect.com.

    [ CLICK HERE TO RESET YOUR PASSWORD ]

    Dismiss Notice

Senior rights?

Discussion in 'General Land Surveying' started by Lex Mercatoria, Oct 9, 2011.

  1. Lex Mercatoria

    Lex Mercatoria 3-Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9
    Jones owns a parcel of land one thousand foot square which has old irons at the 4 corners. Jones sells to Eastman the eastern 500’ in 1960. A survey is performed at the time of the sale and irons are set 500’ west of the east line in the front and back. The deed reads, “the eastern 500’ of Jones’ land”. In 1985 Jones sells the remainder to Westerly. The deed reads “the western 500’ of Jones’ land”. No survey is performed but the 1960 irons are pointed out to Westerly. In 1995 Eastman sells to Mr. NewYoung. A year later a survey is performed to erect a fence. All irons are found. The irons set in 1960 are found to be 996’ west of the east line. Where is the property line?
     
  2. Brooks Cooper

    Brooks Cooper 4-Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2010
    Messages:
    64
    Location:
    Arkadelphia, Texas
    If I understand correctly the pins should be set 500' west of the east line per original intent.
     
  3. mattsib79

    mattsib79 4-Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2011
    Messages:
    171
    Location:
    Louisville KY
    Depends n occupation. If the pins have been relied upon by the adjoining owners then the pins hold over original intent. A surveyors mark even if it was set in error holds if relied upon by the adjoining owners.
     
  4. Kris Morgan

    Kris Morgan 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2010
    Messages:
    3,275
    Location:
    Rusk, Texas
    The property line is between the original monuments used to mark the original division line.

    Had they never been set, it would be at 500' West of the East line as Brooks noted.

    Follow the footsteps
     
  5. Cee Gee

    Cee Gee 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2010
    Messages:
    367
    Location:
    central Maine
    Come again? When you say "The irons set in 1960 are found to be 996’ west of the east line," do you mean the irons which in fact were "old irons" in 1960? Or did the 1960 surveyor do the entire parent parcel, miss the westerly irons by 4 feet, and set (then-) new irons at 996'? Or do you mean there was some whopper of a blunder, and pins intended to be set 500 feet from the east line were actually set 996 feet from the east line?
     
  6. Newtonsapple

    Newtonsapple 4-Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2011
    Messages:
    464
    Location:
    Greene, Maine
    > Come again? When you say "The irons set in 1960 are found to be 996’ west of the east line," do you mean the irons which in fact were "old irons" in 1960? Or did the 1960 surveyor do the entire parent parcel, miss the westerly irons by 4 feet, and set (then-) new irons at 996'? Or do you mean there was some whopper of a blunder, and pins intended to be set 500 feet from the east line were actually set 996 feet from the east line?

    You beat me to it, Cee Gee. I have exactly the same question(s).
     
  7. Duane Frymire

    Duane Frymire 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,117
    Yeah, that's like saying the 1960 irons were found in someones garage. No way I would believe they are in their original undisturbed location.
     
  8. DavidALee

    DavidALee 4-Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2011
    Messages:
    1,120
    Location:
    Huntington, West Virginia
    I think he meant 496'. I have been wrong before though. ;-) The monuments found control the boundary, if they are the monuments set by the surveyor when the eastern 500' was sold off.
     
  9. Lex Mercatoria

    Lex Mercatoria 3-Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9
    Oh yeah, I fubar'd that. I meant 496'.
     
  10. Mapmaker151

    Mapmaker151 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2011
    Messages:
    178
    Location:
    Kansas
    Sounds like the West would get their 500 feet. The pins are not referenced in the deeds. Unless they could be considered the first survey. If fences were erected based on these irons, back in the 60's that would change my opinion. The east would get the remainder of the original lot less or greater than 500' based on the survey of the entire original lot. The senior rights to the west should get his 500'. If the deed said the west 500' marked by irons and described them, then the Irons would hold without question.
     
  11. Kris Morgan

    Kris Morgan 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2010
    Messages:
    3,275
    Location:
    Rusk, Texas
    Sorry, but senior rights only kick in when you can't find or follow the footsteps of the original surveyor. In this case, the irons are there and are notorious to the neighborhood as being original and undisturbed. The tract has 496' in it.
     
  12. Mapmaker151

    Mapmaker151 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2011
    Messages:
    178
    Location:
    Kansas
    You may be right, this is a grey area for me. I was always taught "original monuments hold even if set in error, but wouldn't these be secondary monuments? If they were referenced in the deed they would hold regardless. To me they were set in error, and not the holding monuments. Once again a grey area for me since monuments hold over all other (if original). The irons of the entire lot would hold in my view.
     
  13. Mapmaker151

    Mapmaker151 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2011
    Messages:
    178
    Location:
    Kansas
    If the West lot had not been surveyed, and irons were set over the line from a survey on the East lot. Senior rights would hold. The survey would be in error. example the total lot was 996, but the surveyor marked off the East as 500, taking 4' of the senior lot. Once again I go to the deed. If the West lot was the west 500, to the irons set per the 1960 survey..Then the monuments (even being secondary) would hold.
     
  14. JBStahl

    JBStahl 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,172
    Location:
    Salt Lake City, Utah
    Licensed in:
    MT, UT
    > Jones owns a parcel of land one thousand foot square which has old irons at the 4 corners. Jones sells to Eastman the eastern 500’ in 1960. A survey is performed at the time of the sale and irons are set 500’ west of the east line in the front and back. The deed reads, “the eastern 500’ of Jones’ land”. In 1985 Jones sells the remainder to Westerly. The deed reads “the western 500’ of Jones’ land”. No survey is performed but the 1960 irons are pointed out to Westerly. In 1995 Eastman sells to Mr. NewYoung. A year later a survey is performed to erect a fence. All irons are found. The irons set in 1960 are found to be 996’ west of the east line. Where is the property line?

    Here we go, playing number games again... You've got physical evidence of boundary lines run out and marked out on the ground 51 and 26 years ago. People don't sell numbers; they sell land. Boundaries aren't determined by Euclidean Geometry; they're determined by landowners who set monuments in good faith for the purpose of marking their boundaries. It's our job, as surveyors, to retrace the footsteps, recover the physical boundary evidence left behind to mark the boundaries. When we find them, we have no authority to "fix" them just because they aren't where we think they "should" have been.

    This isn't a problem of seniority at all. You've recovered the monuments. Priority is only an issue when you are marking the boundary for the first time. The boundaries have all been established on the ground for well past the requisite period of time in any state. How many laws can you count that demand the markers be accepted as controlling the boundaries. I can count at least five (you only need one).

    JBS
     
  15. Paul in PA

    Paul in PA 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2010
    Messages:
    4,306
    The Easterly 500' Has Senior Rights

    Assuning the resuvey showed the outbounds to be at 1000'.

    Jones sold Easterly the easterly 500' making it the Senior Parcel.

    Jones sold Westerly the westerly 500', not the remainder. That Jones pointed to the pins is hearsay, since the deed language does not confirm that action. Jones did not sell the remainder to Westerly.

    Easterly needs to bring Jones into court where his lawyer should ask, "Did you sell Easterly the easterly 500? Did you sell Westerly the westerly 500?" Then the lawyer turns to the judge, "Your honor, a correctable error has been made in staking out the easterly tract, and we thank Mr. Westerly for pointing it out to us. Mr. Jones is not a surveyor and relied upon what was told to him in the past. The record is clear as to Jone's intent, we ask for a directed verdict."

    EOS

    Paul in PA
     
  16. Mapmaker151

    Mapmaker151 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2011
    Messages:
    178
    Location:
    Kansas
    The Easterly 500' Has Senior Rights

    That's the way I see it also.
     
  17. Paul in PA

    Paul in PA 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2010
    Messages:
    4,306
    Above You Said Westerly Was Senior

    Which are you holding?

    Paul in PA
     
  18. DavidALee

    DavidALee 4-Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2011
    Messages:
    1,120
    Location:
    Huntington, West Virginia
    Like was mentioned before, junior/senior doesn't matter in this situation. Monuments were set where the surveyor measured 500' when the east lot was sold. The west lot sold and the buyer was shown the monuments. The monuments control the boundary line. Why would you create a problem where there wasn't one previously? What is on the ground is the survey. The measurements are just a guide to find what is on the ground.
     
  19. Mapmaker151

    Mapmaker151 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2011
    Messages:
    178
    Location:
    Kansas
    Above You Said Westerly Was Senior

    The East 500 feet.
     
  20. DavidALee

    DavidALee 4-Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2011
    Messages:
    1,120
    Location:
    Huntington, West Virginia
    Above You Said Westerly Was Senior

    So you would set 2 new pins 4' away from the pins found at 496'? Why?
     

Share This Page