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Where is the line?

Discussion in 'General Land Surveying' started by RADAR, Dec 30, 2011.

  1. RADAR

    RADAR 4-Year Member

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    I have a hypothetical situation I'd like to throw out there.

    You are doing a survey on a 5 acre parcel in the interior of a 12 year old plat. The plat shows a point set on the east property line and you find what you believe to be an original undisturbed 5/8" rebar and cap. You also find undisturbed markers at both ends of the line. You also find that the point on line is 0.5' west of the line produced between the 2 end markers. The line is in a wooded area with thick brush and the point on line is at the top of a steep slope, the back line is about 200' lower than the front.

    So, does the line bend at the point on line or is it straight?

    Thanks for your input.

    Radar
     
  2. Steve Gilbert

    Steve Gilbert 5-Year Member

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    What does the monument on the east line represent? Is it a corner of another parcel and if so, how does it fit with other corners of that parcel?
     
  3. John Public

    John Public 4-Year Member

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    Does the plat show an angle point? Does the plat show the point on line? What was the intent?

    JP
     
  4. RADAR

    RADAR 4-Year Member

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    The point is just a point on line, set there because of the steep slope, making it easier to find the line.

    The intent is for line to be straight.
     
  5. Bill93

    Bill93 5-Year Member

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    So it just serves as a reference point? One that doesn't really agree well with what it is referencing? This might be the perfect place for a pincushion. Set your own reference point.
     
  6. RFB

    RFB 5-Year Member

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    If I could prove that the front and back corners are good, I'd show the straight line between them.

    Because, no one has relied (yet) on the "bent line". (heavy woods)

    Now is the time to straighten it out. But only if those end points are acceptable to you.

    my pennys worth (half a thought)
     
  7. alphasurv

    alphasurv 4-Year Member

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    I'd probably hold the straight line and note the offset and the fact that it's a plat marker.
     
  8. eddiemoravec

    eddiemoravec 3-Year Member

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    There is NO QUESTION WHATSOEVER here. If it is indeed an original monument in the interior of the plat, you have an angle point. Positions of original monuments are ALWAYS held. This is the most fundamental principle of boundary retracement. You do not "correct" an original survey, ever. Shame on all who suggested otherwise.
     
  9. Bradl

    Bradl 3-Year Member

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    Would the potential angle point create an overlap into property not owned by the subdivider? If so then the intent is to be straight, if not what does the description for that larger parcel state, what does the adjoiner's description state?
     
  10. Chan GePlease

    Chan GePlease 4-Year Member

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    This hypothetical is a very common situation. The key to the whole thing is if you accept the corner monuments.

    Since the RM is shown on the original plat and you've accepted it as an original monument, then there is a kink in the line. Especially if there is any occupation to support that.

    Just show it on your plat as R & M along the true (monumented) line, and note the falling from the original platted (straight) line.

    $0.02 based on the provided information
     
  11. Dave Tlusty

    Dave Tlusty 4-Year Member

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    I agree with eddiemoravec.
     
  12. DavidALee

    DavidALee 3-Year Member

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    I would dig it up and move it to where it should be. ;-)
     
  13. Don Blameuser

    Don Blameuser 5-Year Member

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    Second that. Wayne said essentially the same thing.

    Don
     
  14. adamsurveyor

    adamsurveyor 4-Year Member

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    > I have a hypothetical situation I'd like to throw out there.
    >
    > You are doing a survey on a 5 acre parcel in the interior of a 12 year old plat. The plat shows a point set on the east property line and you find what you believe to be an original undisturbed 5/8" rebar and cap. You also find undisturbed markers at both ends of the line. You also find that the point on line is 0.5' west of the line produced between the 2 end markers. The line is in a wooded area with thick brush and the point on line is at the top of a steep slope, the back line is about 200' lower than the front.
    >
    > So, does the line bend at the point on line or is it straight?
    >
    > Thanks for your input.
    >
    > Radar

    0.5' west of the line? Well I would definitely reject it. If it were east, well, 0.5 or even 0.7 would be close enough.;-)

    Based on your hypothetical parameters, I would say the line bends through the monument.

    There is always more evidence, and there are times you might reject a monument, but you need to find enough evidence to justify it.

    Think about this? How do you know that it's the middle point that is off line? How about if the surveyor set a monument, worked his way down the line, set the on-line point well, and set the next angle point off-line? How do you know "which one" to move when the measurement doesn't match the call?

    I tend toward the presumption that a found monument is correct and look to see if there is enough evidence to disprove that monument.
     
  15. DavidALee

    DavidALee 3-Year Member

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    > I tend toward the presumption that a found monument is correct and look to see if there is enough evidence to disprove that monument.

    :good:
     
  16. TTerhune

    TTerhune 3-Year Member

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    The original corner will always hold (survey law 101), however, I really don't think that a re-bar can be considered original without substantial evidence to prove that it is truly the original corner in the original postion.
    With that said, the line line will have an angle break at that location.

    Another 2 cents worth!
     
  17. jud

    jud 4-Year Member

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    Half a foot is outside the required precision here, if there is no evidence of reliance on it's position as evidenced by some improvement, I would not hold it and place a non intended kink in the line. If there was evidence of reliance, not holding it may cause no harm, depending on which side the improvement was located, a visit with both owners would be in order in any case. The common attitude of the owners around here is to not want the line kinked and some will move fences at the time and others will do it later. If there are no improvements then I would show the line straight and reference the found pin with a statement, in the also required narrative, why I did not use it. Always better to wiggle in after clearing line when marking line or make some good checks, half a foot is a big mistake, regardless of appearances the monument might have been disturbed. Set some monument once and the owner pulled some of them, when he needed one he had pulled, he carefully reset it using a transit and built a cross fence on what he thought was the line. I went out and found the pin with my cap under the fence and thought little about it until I did comps and found that the pin had moved about 30 feet. There was an angle point in his line about 30 feet back from the monument he should have used. When I set a new monument at the proper place, his comment was that he thought he had measured better than that, my comment was that he had measured from the wrong place and his measurement was close. I showed the disturbed monument and left it in place and all was explained in the narrative. Can't depend on appearance alone that a monument has not been disturbed. Surveyors, although they need to keep acquired rights in mind and recognize reliance as well as intent, do no favors to those who follow by to to quickly choosing to put kinks in lines intended to be straight.
    jud
     
  18. Jon Payne

    Jon Payne 5-Year Member

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    If I am interpreting what you posted correctly -

    It sounds like the original subdividing surveyor ran the line out on the ground. In that case, I would hold the marker as found and place a bend in the line.
     
  19. adamsurveyor

    adamsurveyor 4-Year Member

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    Maybe you could use statistics to put a best-fit line through the three points, and remonument all three on the statistically best-fit.
     
  20. clearcut

    clearcut 5-Year Member

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    In my best Kenny Roger's voice:

    "You have to know when to hold em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away...."

    I'd hold 'em.
     

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