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Is this ethical? Yes or no.
Posted by holy-cow on September 18, 2022 at 12:52 amIs it ethical for a licensed land surveyor to accept a job that requires knowledge and skills that he/she does not possess?
An example: All prior work has been for simple boundary surveys in suburban subdivisions created in the past 20 years. The new project is a 12-mile new highway route survey through both rugged terrain and major developed industrial/commercial areas of a city.
Quite a number of issues arise for the route survey that are effectively never an issue with single lot surveys. In fact, completely different software from what the surveyor uses routinely may be among the specifications for the project. Time is critical in completing the project.
aliquot replied 1 year, 6 months ago 17 Members · 19 Replies- 19 Replies
I’ve seen older licensed individuals hire competent persons, who did a good job. The older LS did really understand the project. But, his non licensed help did.
Was it ethical? The final product had lots of control. The output drawings had good metadata.
This was more of an exception, but I’ve seen it.
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I’m sure someday surveyors will be forced to follow suit with a declaration of competency in what ever corner of the science they plan to practice. At that time surveyors with little or no experience in certain field will be excluded from legally practicing in those areas.
But here in OK only licensed engineers are currently required to declare a discipline of practice. And from what I’ve gathered that engineer cannot practice outside of that discipline. From our statutes, to-wit;
Selecting a discipline of engineering does not necessarily indicate competency to practice all aspects of that discipline of engineering. The licensee is required by law to only practice within the discipline of engineering in areas in which the licensee is competent.
As an example, listing “Civil” as your primary discipline does not necessarily mean that you are competent to do all types of civil engineering projects. The civil engineer’s specialty may be in wastewater, but not transportation. In this case, the engineer would simply list “Civil”.
Our profession will too eventually evolve. Until then inexperienced “90 day wonders” will continue to attempt to wrangle large and complex projects…sadly with the usually predictable results.
It would be ethical as long as the surveyor does not intend to drive on the highway, or makes full disclosure of that intent before contracting to do the work.
But seriously, this situation being one of the canons of our profession; one should not practice outside one’s expertise.
Historic Boundaries and Conservation EffortsTo me it boils down to the individual’s ability to push themselves to learn new things. My hobby is learning new things and I’ve developed a decent system for it that includes reaching out to those with practical experience.
As it relates to surveying, if I’m interested in learning it, I’ll generally come close to breaking even on the first venture, then I’ll make money on the second. I’m also not wedded to my original assumptions. Failure is the first step towards success etc..
It’s only unethical if you don’t intend to do whatever is necessary to make it right or will not put forth the effort to understand what it will entail.
At the risk of being “tut-tutted” at by folks who don’t think a Code of Professional Conduct is an appropriate place to look for an answer to such questions –
In many states Code of Conduct, it is stated that a licensee is supposed to only solicit or accept work based on his/her qualifications or the qualifications of his/her employees. So the initial concern would be how the licensee in the OP got their hat in the ring to be in a position to accept the work.
Beyond seeking out the work, most Code of Conduct sections will also state that licensee should only undertake assignments they are qualified for by education or experience in the specific area. In that section of the code, there are sometimes stipulations that a licensee can accept work outside of their expertise as long as they cover the parts they are familiar with and have a knowledgeable person in the other areas (either from their firm or an outside consultant) certify and handle areas outside their expertise. Which would leave an opportunity to grow their skill set for the next time that type of work comes up.
People accepting work outside their expertise would be wise to realize that in some states, a question of competency in the area of practice could allow the board of licensure to require the licensee complete a test to prove their competence in that specific area of practice.
- I hope everyone has a great day; I know I will!
Oklahoma Society of Land Surveyors Code of Ethics:
…. a Professional Surveyor should accept assignments only in ones area of professional competence and expertise …..
Professional Land Surveyors of Oregon Code of Ethics:
….. I will perform professional services only within areas of my competence …
Land Surveyors Association of Washington Code of Ethics:
….. Professional Surveyors shall perform services only in the areas of their competence …..
Those are the three I’m familiar with. I’m guessing that the other 47 can be filled in by others.
I’d be curious how someone who has only done lot & block surveys would make it through the selection process unless they hired additional staff with corridor experience.
I’ve worked for firms that landed work they had never done before, but that was only after pulling in additional expertise and/or gaining certifications or training.
“…people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.” -Neil Postman@mark-mayer
This is from Florida (FSMS)….we stole it from NSPS ????
Code of Ethics
Code: As surveying and mapping professionals, we recognize that our ethical responsibilities extend to the public, to our clients, and to our peers. Accordingly, we acknowledge the following elements to identify our basic values: integrity, competence, and social awareness. Surveying and mapping professionals uphold and advance these values by (I) supporting and participating in the continuing development of the surveying and mapping professions; (II) serving with honesty, with forthrightness, and within their areas of skill; (III) using their expertise for the enhancement of human welfare and for the stewardship of resources.
How big is the company?
If it’s a solo, residential boundary surveyor; he won’t be able to keep up with demand, and if one of the requirements is; deliverables in a format that they are not familiar with, created in a software they don’t own, and have never used. Then no, they’d be foolish to even apply.
If it’s a mid-size firm, running 2-3 crews, then, maybe. The big factor here would be deliverables.
I hope everyone has a great day; I know I will!I’d be interested in how the State agency selected that firm using a qualifications based process. That’s how all municipal work is completed in every city, county and state I work in. This quickly eliminates those that aren’t qualified or have knowledge of this type of work.
Ah. The classic we can’t hire you because you don’t have the experience you would gain from us hiring you. Or, we can’t give you a loan to buy equipment for your business that you would use to make the money that would prove that you are capable of repaying the loan.
The way I tend to interpret this code is 1.) don’t be stupid about it, and 2.) don’t bite off more than you can chew. Because unless you’re some sort of living, breathing deity everyone enters the world as a know-nothing and help is never guaranteed.
- Posted by: @bstrand
The way I tend to interpret this code is 1.) don’t be stupid about it, and 2.) don’t bite off more than you can chew.
Many’s the time in both my personal and professional lives that I’ve stretched myself to learn and become adept at new things. It’s called “growth.”
“Codes of Conduct” and the like can be dangerous items. Stating that one adheres to one or being a member of a Professional Society that has one means that you adhere to ALL of the items it may address. Many people have never even seen or read the “Code” that they profess to adhere to. This makes great fodder for attorneys if one is not very cautious.
- Posted by: @paden-cash
Until then inexperienced “90 day wonders” will continue to attempt to wrangle large and complex projects…sadly with the usually predictable results.
It’s a survey problem, but in my experience it’s also a contracting agency problem.
If an organization is putting out qualifications-based RFPs, they also need to be informed enough to evaluate those qualifications – and they actually need to put the work in to do so.
Granted, many applicants put a great deal of marketing fluff in their SOQ and proposals, and might simply plagiarize from previous proposals or other firms, but that’s also why interviews are a critical piece for anything more than a minor-to-moderate sized project.
Just like hiring individuals, it’s best to compare how they (or an organization) look on paper with how they respond to pertinent verbal questions in real-time.
Even though I have a pretty solid resume, I much prefer to be interviewed if I am competing for a position or for a contract. It’s far easier to sandbag on paper than in person, and a good interviewer will catch that right away.
“…people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.” -Neil Postman It’s required under State MWBE programs. The idea was to help those who didn’t have the expertise get it. Originally, after 10 years the certification would end (presumably the organization/individual would then have the expertise to compete on a level playing field). But there’s now companies that have been certified for 20-30 years. Much of the program is geared to highway or other infrastructure work. In NY something like 90% of required MWBE participation on an infrastructure project is accomplished via the surveying portion of the project (very little in engineering, architecture, etc.). Is that ethical? Is it ethical to compete while unqualified only if certified MWBE?
Not a political post, and I have no real desire to perform that type of work. Just wondering if a government program alone can turn the unethical into the ethical. Why couldn’t any unqualified firm/individual compete for the work, then get/hire the required expertise if they win the project? I wouldn’t hesitate to take on a project where I know I’ll be farming out some part of it and have an agreement with someone with that expertise to take on that part.
should not matter if the project is a route survey for a roadway or a boundary survey or construction staking. The principles are similar. The real question would be if the firm taking on the project has the resources to deliver the professional services required. This includes financial, equipment, expertise, software, personnel. Nothing wrong with thinking/planning how to do a project without the above and believing in yourself, commitments from subs and lenders, winning that contract and then delivering.
@duane-frymire oooh this is a favorite pet peeve of mine. Unlicensed WMBE obtaining a professional services contract/subcontract and then hiring the licensed professionals to perform the job. Ethical? Legal-yes. We have been called in after the fact to bail some of these projects out. Then when the contracting agency wanted to hire us, they could not as we were not WMBE.
Many of the WMBE programs rotate out those who can now compete or have a net worth >1mil. Except that the state agencies do not audit and those who own/operate these firms have found ways around.
Of course it is unethical to take on a job that you are not competent to perform, but I think “competent to perform” means different things to different people. Not knowing the software is not “not competent” Haven’t we all learned software by using it on the job? We are proffesionals not technicians.
Maybe some under billing would be appropriate in some situations to compensate for learning time.
At what point does someone become not competent? We aren’t designing spaceships. We should all have the ability to learn what we need and get the help we need to complete most jobs.
Of course there are exceptions, and misrepresenting your experience is clearly unethical.
The best examples of non competent surveyors that I have seen are those thar have spent there carriers in construction trying to jump into boundary surveying with the idea that it is simple and and just another application of the skills they already have.
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