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Man sues NC Survey Board after being issued cease and desist for flying drone
Posted by stlsurveyor on March 30, 2021 at 11:51 pmAny NC surveyors following this? May lead to more States or more operators.
mathteacher replied 2 years, 10 months ago 25 Members · 61 Replies- 61 Replies
Um….i thought that Boards didnt license Tools…..is that doctrine not holding anymore? ….and yes, I know that there are some real tools that have been licensed, good or bad….
Such things are not unheard of in NC. In the first one below, the defendant purportedly created a traffic engineering study in violation of NC practice of engineering statutes. The case turned on the fact that the study was not signed, the defendant did not admit to anything, and there was no hard evidence proving that the study was his work. Had he lost, the appeal might have been a first amendment case.
https://indyweek.com/news/wake/state-engineer-files-complaint-group-challenged-traffic-study/
In the next one, some non-dentists were offering tooth-whitening services. Licensed dentists objected and complained to their licensing board. The suit was filed by the FTC and went to SCOTUS where the licensing board lost.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Carolina_State_Board_of_Dental_Examiners_v._FTC
It’s certainly worth following.
https://www.ncbels.org/general-info/policies-guidelines/
IJ is going to be busy.
Many of these policies have nothing to do with land boundaries.
https://droners.io/accounts/360vdrone/
One service offered is surveying and mapping. That is probably what caught their attention.
I think someone on this forum said to keep an eye on the flood-gates after the dentist ruling. NC Surveyor so, maybe that comment came from my local chapter.
Seems like everyone knows more than me these days. I believe self-performers will continue to get more emboldened with advanced technology. Who really needs to understand anything when there’s ‘google’.
For the record, I am not following any cases. I am humbled by the continued call volume for new work I am currently receiving. My best to everyone.
A quick web search, and I can’t seem to find them championing that right to repair movement, which seems to be a well aligned cause for them.
These two got a pass though
????
Drawing even rough approximations of property lines on images requires a land-surveyor license.
Haha Get this clown out of here. ????
1.) Where’s the outrage and lawsuit from this guy over having to get the FAA license?
2.) The survey license is more of a money-making racket for colleges and universities than the state licensing boards (imo) but no mention of that.
No sympathy for this guy, I hope he loses the case.
I suppose Michael’s success will in large part depend on how much money he has or can collect from others with similar interests.
Their myopic focus on boundary might be a non starter. Our board is well organized and will not have difficulty providing examples of drone operators providing bad data. I’m in the process of purchasing a drone (already have the FAA license), and have spot checked data from a five different drone topos. On bare earth sites the topos were fine. Whenever there was any tall grass, brush, or stickers, the topo was a joke.
One of the sites was an active landfill and the topo was signed by a NC PLS. They flew it without getting the landfill to mow the slopes. On the toes of the slope, where the stickers were thickest, they were about three feet high, two feet high near the mid slope, but accurate on bare earth. This explained why, despite a year’s worth of dumping trash, my topo showed that they had lost volume from the previous year (the drone topo). It also explained why 2019’s volume was abnormally large. Sometimes saving a buck costs you a fortune…
Surveyors are licensed to determine property boundaries. That’s it. Trying to claim otherwise is protectionist nonsense.
Total overreach by the board
This is not the case in NC – See https://www.ncbels.org/general-info/rules-laws/
Practice of land surveying. –
a. Providing professional services such as consultation, investigation, testimony, evaluation, planning, mapping, assembling, and interpreting reliable scientific measurements and information relative to the location, size, shape, or physical features of the earth, improvements on the earth, the space above the earth, or any part of the earth, whether the gathering of information for the providing of these services is accomplished by conventional ground measurements, by aerial photography, by global positioning via satellites, or by a combination of any of these methods, and the utilization and development of these facts and interpretations into an orderly survey map, plan, report, description, or project. The practice of land surveying includes the following:
1. Locating, relocating, establishing, laying out, or retracing any property line, easement, or boundary of any tract of land;
2. Locating, relocating, establishing, or laying out the alignment or elevation of any of the fixed works embraced within the practice of professional engineering;
3. Making any survey for the subdivision of any tract of land, including the topography, alignment and grades of streets and incidental drainage within the subdivision, and the preparation and perpetuation of maps, record plats, field note records, and property descriptions that represent these surveys;
4. Determining, by the use of the principles of land surveying, the position for any survey monument or reference point, or setting, resetting, or replacing any survey monument or reference point;
5. Determining the configuration or contour of the earth’s surface or the position of fixed objects on the earth’s surface by measuring lines and angles and applying the principles of mathematics or photogrammetry;
6. Providing geodetic surveying which includes surveying for determination of the size and shape of the earth both horizontally and vertically and the precise positioning of points on the earth utilizing angular and linear measurements through spatially oriented spherical geometry; and
7. Creating, preparing, or modifying electronic or computerized data, including land information systems and geographic information systems relative to the performance of the practice of land surveying.
b. The term “practice of land surveying” shall not be construed to permit the design or preparation of specifications for (i) major highways; (ii) wastewater systems; (iii) wastewater or industrial waste treatment works; (iv) pumping or lift stations; (v) water supply, treatment, or distribution systems; (vi) streets or storm sewer systems except as incidental to a subdivision
https://www.ncleg.net/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/bychapter/chapter_89c.html
And it is not the case in PA, NY, or NJ either. Right now, land surveyors are licensed to do much more than boundaries in many states in the United States of America.
My opinion: I don’t disagree that boundaries are the most complex and difficult thing to solve in the surveying profession, and of the highest importance in the surveying profession. But they are also not the only complex issue a licensed land surveyor could be faced with (unless all you do is boundary work.)
Yeah, I actually wouldn’t care if he was just trying to do a topo but it sounds like he’s sticking boundaries on there too.
@john-hamilton I agree. If he has a Part 107 he can fly and make money. No laws against using Pix4D to make a picture. No law against taking open source data, such as county parcel data and overlaying it on top of a picture. As long as he isn’t claiming to be determining boundary lines and notes and site sources I see no issue.
Probably just old salty dogs that can’t do the same 5 min. process are getting butt hurt.
Remember, GIS means Get it Surveyed (snarled laughter), unless you don’t need it surveyed, right, then GIS is the devil and must be stopped!!!
Adapt or die.
0.02
@bstrand Using Open Source data is not illegal as long as it is sited and presented as such.
You’re right actually. We should encourage these guys to do what they do since if their clients get burned then maybe they’ll see the value of a real survey.
@bstrand Exactly. However, there is a danger in assuming the clients are using the products in lieu of a boundary survey. The product can be used for reference only and some people don’t really care about accuracy with certified boundary lines.
My understanding of the case (https://ij.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Complaint-NC-Drones-File-Stamped.pdf) is that he is creating topographic maps from photographs and placing boundaries on said maps. The boundaries, in one instance, were an approximation from the realtor. The maps had coordinates and measurements on them. I feel that could be harmful. I don’t think anyone ever made the claim that people can’t take photos with their drone and sell them.
Posted by: @stlsurveyorNo laws against using Pix4D to make a picture.
Pix4D doesn’t make photos, it makes maps from the photos using the process of photogrammetry.
As far as causing harm to the public I think what the maps are being used for and why is as important as what is on the maps.
just my opinion
It would be overreach in most states but not NC.
NC has a long history of quality public planning. It was, after all, an NC engineer who conceived of the SPCS now used nationwide. Since the 90s, NC has invested millions on aerial mapping of the entire state. Continuously flying full state Lidar is just one of the steps taken to provide the best flood mapping in the US and perhaps second or third in the world (google FIMAN NC flood map). NC Geodetic Survey provides a plethora of well maintained physical benchmarks, a robust CORS system that now includes correction (and upgraded receivers) for all the birds in the sky. Our VRN costs a one time fee of $500. Lidar data is free.
Unlike most states, NC addressed GIS and UAV issues early. In NC a surveyor is not just knowledgeable about boundaries, we are expected to understand, calculate, and approximate error.
Also, engineers in our state are often reprimanded or fined for surveying without a license. Often due to their lack of knowledge concerning boundaries (placing lines on a map that would lead an unsophisticated party to make poorly informed decisions) and for making claims unsubstantiated claims concerning the accuracy of a design.
In short, we spend millions to save billions and we don’t suffer fools who don’t take the time to learn how to prove the accuracy of their spatial data.
I am more than slightly annoyed/offended by the ending where the surveyors are not keeping up with the tech. Many of us are. How do we know that the tech guys are learning the fundamentals?
When we were getting into Mobile LiDAR we almost went with Trimble. The tech who was brought in to describe the equipment, process and outputs had no understanding of accuracy, precision, repeatability or responsibility. He was a GIS guy, not a surveyor. We ultimately purchased our equipment from a surveyor who could talk the talk and walk the walk.
The prosecutor only needs to hire a techy surveyor who can bring this guy to his knees with the underlying principles.
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