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Flipping the bearing
Posted by Unknown Member on June 14, 2020 at 5:20 pmThought I would try this note at the end of today’s and all future meets and bounds descriptions and see how it works:
“This meted and bounds description is arbitrarily reading clockwise. Reference on the accompanying plat to any bearing that reads exactly 180 degrees counter to the described bearing is irrelevant. A bearing is mathematically identical if staked with the same degrees, minutes and seconds as if we’re stated as being exactly 180 degrees opposite, the same laws of math apply if this meted and bounds description was arbitrarily written to read in a counter clockwise direction. Any bearing stars in exactly 180 degrees counter to the plat does not constitute a survey error. There is no legal criteria or difference in whether a meted and bounds description reads in a right flowing or left flowing direction. The word ‘thence’ only pertains to how a reader follows a described line, and does not in any way change the location of any monumented line on the ground.”
RADAR replied 3 years, 11 months ago 18 Members · 31 Replies- 31 Replies
Sorry for the spelling. Meted is metes, staked is stated, etc
They still won’t get it.. and adding “180” degrees into the discussion may only make it worse.
A simple sketch exhibit might be more understandable to the layman. IMHO.
Must simplify. Try this:
Note: Bearings may appear as seen going either clockwise or counterclockwise around this and adjoining parcels. For example, N 10 W going one direction S 10 E seen from the other end.
.After dealing with assorted title, realtors and attorneys and a couple of clients about a random bearing on a drawing being opposite of what was in their Metes and Bounds description, I’ve determined that most of the complaints and assistance that changes be made on their drawing came from the most hard-headed people on the planet.
Sometimes the scale of a drawing prohibits having the bearing and distance on both sides of every boundary line and no matter what you do or say, some people can not understand line tables and then there is that one or two that can not follow the lines on a drawing and determine where they are on the ground with everything marked with flagging.
On the rare occasion, I have had to draw a blanket of a drawing to put all the detail and text at a large enough size it could be read from across a street to satisfy the client’s wants.
I have one client that is in his 80s and can not read very well. He has done everything his entire life with an eye to eye and a handshake relation that he is getting a fair deal with everything he has been involved in. He never looks at any of the paperwork and always asks where he needs to take the product to get a deed made.
0.02
For years I gave up and tried doing what I’m told as the easiest way to get a check. Still got denounced for my “errors”. These descriptions are hijacked. It is mathematically impossible to “rotate” the same direction if you have four or more lots. Not to mention that a description of a platter lot and block usually ruins that survey. I decided to just state what I believe and expect to still “correct” my plats to please the attorney.
You can please some of the people some of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time.
Many years ago I had a client tell me as we walked around his tract to see what needed done that he could tell if a description was written correctly or not. It was required by law, he told me, that all metes and bounds descriptions be written in a counterclockwise manner. No matter how I tried to assure him that was not written into any law in our State he was adamant. So, I wrote his description that way and made him happy. It didn’t really matter to me which way it went but I felt compelled to warn him that there was no law on any book stating that as a requirement. I think he was a custodian in some industrial facility, so he must know more about surveying and descriptions than the average surveyor.
No one will read the note and if they do it will confuse them further making them think you are pulling a con. Assuming the reader is an Attorney, they already think 99% of the people are pulling some BS so they will assume the same of you. Land Surveyors tend to be more honest and ethical than the general population so we don’t get the view from the outside looking in.
What we have heee-yaaa….. is a great argument in favor of using azimuths.
Not long ago, I surveyed an area of totally screwed up meted and bounds parcels from the 1960s, first red flag. Wound up carving out a piece from one large tract to make it “work” and in our state this is called an “exemption” which is a recorded subdivision so the legal is x lot, y block, z subdivision. None of the adjoining metes and bounds deeds went the “same way” you guessed it. Couldn’t make the planning department, lawyers or landowners happy after a LOT of time. Sale almost fell through at last minute due to survey “errors”. Surveyor almost went to field pulled out all the pins and said “go to hell”
Probably not. Explaining that 145°56’23” is the same as 325°56’23” would really baffle those that can’t handle quadrant reversals.
A note such as the OP proposes is probably better put on the map instead of the legal description.
If you have control of the map your bearing calls should go in the direction that the legal description will go – problem solved.
- Posted by: @mark-mayer
What we have heee-yaaa….. is a great argument in favor of using azimuths.
While I like azimuths better than quadrant bearings, I don’t see that they help the problems discussed here.
. And you can bet that 145?ø56’23” will be read as 145 degrees, 56 feet, 23 inches.
And then if you tried to convert it to a bearing they would read it as South 34 degrees, 3 feet, 37 inches, (pause here) tuv.xy East.
interior angles for the difficult clients
@james-vianna There was an old surveyor here who showed interior angles. His work was decent and easy to follow.
Andy
Of course, I am always tempted to say “I am trying to help YOU sobs get out of YOUR legal predicament, and you are trying your damndest to SNAFU it all up” but no, would rather have a check and a roomful of degrading insults!
- Posted by: @james-vianna
interior angles for the difficult clients
I would favor recording what you measured (after possible adjustment for closure). If you retraced with a compass, then you measured bearings/azimuths. If it is a total station job, you measured angles, not bearings. If it is a GNSS job, you measured relative coordinates, which since nobody trusts coordinates could also be expressed as distances and bearings/azimuths.
. I think our communication and educatiing skills need to be fined tuned a bit…We need to present ourselves as professionals and as equals to the attorneys in the room (more than equals when it comes to boundaries).Sometimes it is our job to explain to someone else why they are wrong.
When I am in a meeting with attorneys, clients and other surveyors and the other surveyors come off as uneducated, speak with bad grammar, and pick the wrong fights, I cringe for our profession.
I do not purport to being a professional. I passed a test and have a stamp and for whatever reason, these lawyers want to pay me for these documents. The fact that they tell me what to put on my plat and what I will assume liability for proves I am no professional, not in their league. If it were only about communication, I would have trouble making it to mascot, much less apprentice.
“Note: The metes and bounds description herein will make no sense to the ignorant.”
Heck just do this and get it over with:
I hate doing this, but if it makes the division sail through then…??.
Got one comment back from the regulators on the entire project.
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