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Original Monuments....That Aren't

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Scott Bordenet
(@scott-bordenet)
100+ posts Member

Opinions plz....situation is this: A city block was created with the four external block corners set.  Internal corners would be set over time.  As we all know, those block corners are "without error" (assuming no blunder).  

 

Fast forward to today.  One of the block corners is now a capped rebar (obviously not what could have originally been used). It fits beautifully.  My question is not whether to use it or not.  My question is this: do you personally consider it to be "without error".  (1) What is your opinion?  (2) What does the law in your say (state your legal standing if you can)?

Scott B.

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Topic starter Posted : September 21, 2021 3:53 pm
Murphy
(@murphy)
200+ posts Member

While it'd make me feel better if I had some evidence of when and who set it, I'd still assume it represents better evidence than the infinite hypotheticals swirling around in my mind.

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Posted : September 21, 2021 4:09 pm
Hi-staker, Allen Wrench, RADAR and 1 people liked
Scott Bordenet
(@scott-bordenet)
100+ posts Member

Murphy....forget the hypotheticals and that every rule has an exception.  Whatever you need to convince you that it is in the original location, you have it.  I'll even concede that it should be used by all available occupation..  Does that new monument carry the same weight of what the original did?

Scott

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Topic starter Posted : September 21, 2021 4:15 pm

Murphy
(@murphy)
200+ posts Member

I don't view "without error" as relavent outside of philosophical discussion.  It's a non falsifiable assertion, so best not to even bring it up.  Describe the found monument, reference evidence supporting its pedigree if any exists, and leave it to others to prove a negative.

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Posted : September 21, 2021 4:20 pm
Murphy
(@murphy)
200+ posts Member

@scott-bordenet 

No it doesn't carry the same weight, but it will be the next best thing.

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Posted : September 21, 2021 4:22 pm
Norman Oklahoma
(@norman-oklahoma)
5,000+ posts Member

A good faith restoration of an original plat monument has all the dignity of the original, once accepted, IMO. 

image

From Wattles Writing Legal Descriptions 

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Posted : September 21, 2021 4:31 pm
dmyhill, Dan Dunn, Nate The Surveyor and 3 people liked

aliquot
(@aliquot)
1,000+ posts Member

I think we tend to take the concept that the original survey is without error a little to literally. The phrase has been used by the courts to make a point, and the context of those cases should be taken into account. 

Also, a blunder doesn't necessarily negate the "without error". An original stubbed out 1/4 with a dropped chain or two and a 20 degree angle bust is definitely a blunder, but it is still "without error". Depending on the circumstances the same could apply to a private subdivision corner. 

As for your question. If  the rebar is a diligent and faithful restoration of an original corner the corner is still "without error", but you could be in error in concluding that that the rebar is a diligent and faithful restoration. In other words it all hinges on your determination of whether the corner is lost or obliterated, and that decision is not necessarily "without error". 

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Posted : September 21, 2021 4:33 pm
Husker796 liked
aliquot
(@aliquot)
1,000+ posts Member

@norman-oklahoma 

The problem is that your determination that it was a good faith restoration is not without error. 

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Posted : September 21, 2021 4:36 pm
RADAR and Murphy liked
Scott Bordenet
(@scott-bordenet)
100+ posts Member

Murphy, like your application...probably what we will all do.

Norman, great citation.  Wattles no less....not Brown, Robillard, Cooley...though those guys aren't bad either. 🤣

 

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Topic starter Posted : September 21, 2021 4:37 pm

MightyMoe
(@mightymoe)
5,000+ posts Supporter

The default position is to hold the monument, much like Norman's quote says. The burden is on the rejector. 

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Posted : September 21, 2021 5:59 pm
RADAR, dmyhill and JPH liked
Mark Mayer
(@mark-mayer)
1,000+ posts Member

@scott-bordenet 

There are several such references in Brown. In my 1st edition of BC & LP is found:

Principle. In a lot and block description, subdivision monuments called for on the plat, or monuments set by others to perpetuate the position of the original monuments called for, if properly identified and undisturbed, control the position of the original lot lines. 

This principle remains in the seventh edition, unchanged, as section 12.11. 

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Posted : September 21, 2021 11:04 pm
Jp7191 liked
JPH
 JPH
(@jph)
1,000+ posts Member

@mightymoe 

I agree, I go with the presumption that a found monument is good until proven otherwise.  I don't just go about rejecting monuments just because they're not called for in the deed or original plat

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Posted : September 22, 2021 5:26 am
Gary liked

MightyMoe
(@mightymoe)
5,000+ posts Supporter

@jph 

Yes, and there needs to be a very compelling reason to reject a monument. Not that I won't or haven't done it. We cleaned up a property a couple of months ago, there was all kinds of irons out there that needed to go. But I'm lucky I guess that is rare here as are multiple monuments at a corner. 

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Posted : September 22, 2021 5:47 am
Scott Bordenet
(@scott-bordenet)
100+ posts Member

@mark-mayer 

Yes - like Brown's interpretation and therefore practical application for surveyors needing to stake corners when all is said and done.

Would you agree that a strict legal interpretation would say, "Wait, that corner is suspect because it is not original!"....to which I would say something like, "Yes, you are right.  So I did some checking and I'm using it (or maybe rejecting it if I found something wrong)!".

The whole point of my query is to investigate everyone's understanding of a legal interpretation of an original monument.

 

 

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Topic starter Posted : September 22, 2021 6:12 am
Norman Oklahoma
(@norman-oklahoma)
5,000+ posts Member

It frequently happens that we do not have a well documented paper trail. No biggie. So the surveyor must make measurements to the various other monuments and improvements he (or she) finds and evaluate evidence. If it all, or at least most of it, fits it is fair to assume that some reasonable thought and effort went into its placement.  The standard is  "clear and convincing evidence". 

 

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Posted : September 22, 2021 7:52 am

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