Notifications
Clear all

Setting up a drawing in Civil 3D for Land Surveying

42 Posts
12 Users
33 Likes
681 Views
 JPH
(@jph)
Posts: 2230
Member Member
 

@bstrand 

Ok, I'll tap out, since it's C3D stuff

Makes me love Carlson even more.

 
Posted : January 25, 2023 7:06 am
BC.Surveyor
(@bc-surveyor)
Posts: 108
Member Member
Topic starter
 

Posted by: @kjypls

I'm a new C3D user of two weeks now. I picked up a couple of new things.

I know you made it for yourself, but my constructive feedback is the pace was scorching fast (for me). I had to slow the playback speed down to keep track of your mouse.

Thanks for the video.

 

I agree with you. It's a balancing act of splitting up a video, skipping parts or making it 30+ minutes which usually means people will see that length and not bother to click it.

The videos I like, pack a ton of info in to get the point and functionality across and then I go back multiple times at my own pace to follow along. I'll get better as I make more though.

 

 
Posted : January 25, 2023 7:43 am
BC.Surveyor
(@bc-surveyor)
Posts: 108
Member Member
Topic starter
 

Posted by: @rover83

I'm a fan of C3D as well for drafting and topo. It's great for designing subdivision/plat lots as well, once you set up the automated tools correctly.

I've never had double points either, and I've been using C3D more or less consistently since 2009.

Even though I prefer TBC for linework processing, C3D works just great when it is set up right. The only problem I have had with survey figures is getting linetypes to display correctly. It's been a while since I have run C3D linework processing, so maybe that has been fixed. In any case I just ran a LISP routine to copy the survey figures to 2D polylines and place the figures on a hide layer so they could still be used for surface creation.

 

To address @bc-surveyor 's question about datums and transformations...this is my main beef with C3D. It presents itself as a program with geodetic functionality, but does not actually deliver.

We often work near the boundary between the Washington State north and south zones. If I have two drawing files, one set to WA-North and the other to WA-South, and both contain the exact same polygon representing the exact same parcel boundary (geodetically speaking), they will not line up if I Xref one into the other. It just dumps on drawing file on top of the other. Hence my "no OTF transformations" comment.

Datums are likely more of an issue here in the USA because we are currently running in NAD83 rather than ITRF/WGS84. But we often receive shapefiles from subs or third parties that are in the latter system and need to get them into C3D.

However, even with an NAD83 datum and projection set in the C3D drawing file, and with the correct WGS84 PRJ file set for the shapefile, C3D will not transform from ITRF/WGS84 to NAD83 during import. Instead, it just projects them as if the ITRF positions were NAD83 (null transformation). Around here the shift is about 1.5-2m, which can make for a bad day down the road, because it sometimes looks like it's "right".

In order for those datums to be correctly transformed, one has to create an entirely new set of datums, transformations, and projections tied to them. It works - I’ve tested it - but it shouldn’t be necessary at all and would be a gigantic pain to have to roll out custom CS definitions and tell everyone to ignore the standard ones.

So all that is to say that what C3D says it can do, it does not really do.

Perhaps this is a minor issue at the moment, but as I mentioned upthread, there are a LOT more users nowadays pulling data into their projects from outside sources with no understanding of what is going on under the hood. It will likely become even more critical in the coming years once NATRF2022 is "released".

 

That being said, I still love C3D for drafting.

 

I think I'm following you. What is your workaround with other programs?

 

I haven't transformed between projections yet as I've never been in a situation where I'm working between a UTM boundary, but I believe this video would be the workflow you're looking for? If you happen to try it, let me know how it works.

 

We also only use NAD83 where I'm at, however we do use different epochs depending where in the province you're at. But were talking a few cm difference.

 

 
Posted : January 25, 2023 7:56 am

Get the 2023 SurveyorConnect Wall Calendar

BC.Surveyor
(@bc-surveyor)
Posts: 108
Member Member
Topic starter
 

Posted by: @jph

@bstrand 

Ok, I'll tap out, since it's C3D stuff

Makes me love Carlson even more.

 

I believe Carlson's CAD package (which I am not familiar with) is very similar to Microsurvey's (which I am familiar with)?

 

What do you find you can do in Carlson that you cannot in C3D? Or what do you find that Carlson does better?

 

In my experience with Microsurvey, which is still common use around here, especially for older surveyors that have been using it for 20 years, are holding onto it because of the learning curve associated with C3D. I'd love to figure out what C3D cant do that these other packages can and try to figure out a workflow to accomplish that objective in Civil.

 

 
Posted : January 25, 2023 8:03 am
 JPH
(@jph)
Posts: 2230
Member Member
 

@bc-surveyor 

I've no idea what Carlson does better, objectively, I just know it and like it

I don't use C3D all that much, but I suspect that if I made the switch, I'd probably hate it for a while, till I came to terms with it, and would be fine.

Carlson works for me, and at this point in my life and career, I like easy

 
Posted : January 25, 2023 8:12 am
BC.Surveyor reacted
Norman Oklahoma
(@norman-oklahoma)
Posts: 6776
Member Member
 

Posted by: @bstrand

I'm talking specifically about the double sets of points with cogo and survey points

I refrain from using "survey points". I import "cogo points" to the drawing and then populate the survey database by "import points from drawing" on running the F2f. If edits to the points are appropriate I'll do that to the cogo points and then re-import to the SD. Once the F2f is complete I discard the SD. So if the "survey points" are what you are referring to as "hot garbage" - OK - but to me it's just something that doesn't enter my consciousness.  I couldn't say that of actual hot garbage.   

 
Posted : January 25, 2023 8:16 am

Get the 2023 SurveyorConnect Wall Calendar

BC.Surveyor
(@bc-surveyor)
Posts: 108
Member Member
Topic starter
 

Posted by: @norman-oklahoma

Posted by: @bstrand

I'm talking specifically about the double sets of points with cogo and survey points

I refrain from using "survey points". I import "cogo points" to the drawing and then populate the survey database by "import points from drawing" on running the F2f. If edits to the points are appropriate I'll do that to the cogo points and then re-import to the SD. Once the F2f is complete I discard the SD. So if the "survey points" are what you are referring to as "hot garbage" - OK - but to me it's just something that doesn't enter my consciousness.  I couldn't say that of actual hot garbage.   

 

What are the benefits of using the Survey Database? Is it a means to get you to the goal of automatically drawing linework based on a points code? Are there other advantages?

 

 
Posted : January 25, 2023 8:25 am
Jitterboogie reacted
Squirltech
(@squirl)
Posts: 1068
Member Member
 

Interesting video...thanks for sharing

Here we put everything needed for a project/client in the template. The user only needs to set the projection/zone and import the points that were QCd in TBC and they're off and running.

 
Posted : January 25, 2023 8:36 am
Rover83
(@rover83)
Posts: 1774
Member Member
 

@bc-surveyor

I haven't transformed between projections yet as I've never been in a situation where I'm working between a UTM boundary, but I believe this video would be the workflow you're looking for? If you happen to try it, let me know how it works.

I do like the Attach routine, but aside from being a bit cumbersome and technical for the average CAD tech, it actually inserts the objects from the reference drawing to the target drawing rather than overlay the two and keeping them separate.

We will use Attach to transform DWG from one system to the other and then Save As to a new DWG file, but that negates the goal of being able to keep drawings in different systems and pull them in as references that will reproject correctly.

 
Posted : January 25, 2023 9:48 am
Jitterboogie reacted

Get the 2023 SurveyorConnect Wall Calendar

Norman Oklahoma
(@norman-oklahoma)
Posts: 6776
Member Member
 

Posted by: @bc-surveyor

What do you find you can do in Carlson that you cannot in C3D? Or what do you find that Carlson does better?

The first thing is that I can do with Carlson is pocket about $4000 per copy vs. buying a copy of C3d, back when you could still buy a copy of C3d outright.  Second thing is to actually buy a copy for about the cost of the annual rental of C3d. The annual upgrade fee on Carlson is about equal to the monthly rental of C3d. So it is much cheaper, that is, at least the IntelliCAD based version is. And ICAD has become a very good and stable product. 

Beyond that Carlson just has a lot of functions going beyond drafting - that actually work - that C3d just doesn't have. It includes a fully functioning LS adjustment package called SurvNet, for example. It has utilities for downloading your data collector. There are also numerous little routines that C3d just doesn't have.   

 
Posted : January 25, 2023 10:08 am
Norman Oklahoma
(@norman-oklahoma)
Posts: 6776
Member Member
 

Posted by: @bc-surveyor

What are the benefits of using the Survey Database?

The main benefit is that the "survey points" are locked to users and can only be edited via the SD. Therefore, downstream users (ie/engineers and architects) who lack access to the SD cannot F with the data points. To me it does seem like a solution in search of a problem.

 
Posted : January 25, 2023 10:39 am
(@bstrand)
Posts: 1665
Mapper of Things Member
 

Yes, by double sets of points I'm talking about survey points and cogo points.  And I'm hardly a Civil 3D power user so my experience is limited, but I still don't see the difference between 3D polylines and survey figures other than survey figures being more difficult to edit.  

 
Posted : January 25, 2023 11:41 am
Jitterboogie reacted

Get the 2023 SurveyorConnect Wall Calendar

(@wa-id-surveyor)
Posts: 787
Member Member
 

Posted by: @norman-oklahoma

The main benefit is that the "survey points" are locked to users and can only be edited via the SD. Therefore, downstream users (ie/engineers and architects) who lack access to the SD cannot F with the data points. To me it does seem like a solution in search of a problem.

That is certainly a huge benefit as it's not only others that move points, It stops anyone from accidentally moving points.  I've moved my fair share on accident.

We use the database to insert points across the project into any drawing associated with the project seamlessly.  Our projects can span 10s, if not hundreds of drawings and files.  

We use the database to log the data in and out for each day by name.  You tell me the point #, i can tell you what day it was tied and who tied it in 15 seconds.  Not always needed, but when it is it's very useful.

We use the database....well...as a database.  We tie all our primary control and section corners in State Plane and have built a state plane survey database.  Then, we we're getting ready to start a new project we set our project transformation settings(to get us to ground) import our pertinent section corners and control points switch the transformation settings back and now we're good to go.  This has saved us countless hours.

There are other advantages, but those are the few off the top of my head.

 
Posted : January 25, 2023 11:42 am
Rover83 and Jitterboogie reacted
BC.Surveyor
(@bc-surveyor)
Posts: 108
Member Member
Topic starter
 

Posted by: @wa-id-surveyor

Posted by: @norman-oklahoma

The main benefit is that the "survey points" are locked to users and can only be edited via the SD. Therefore, downstream users (ie/engineers and architects) who lack access to the SD cannot F with the data points. To me it does seem like a solution in search of a problem.

That is certainly a huge benefit as it's not only others that move points, It stops anyone from accidentally moving points.  I've moved my fair share on accident.

 

Right click a point group in the prospector tab, select lock points.

 

We use the database to insert points across the project into any drawing associated with the project seamlessly.  Our projects can span 10s, if not hundreds of drawings and files.  

We use the database to log the data in and out for each day by name.  You tell me the point #, i can tell you what day it was tied and who tied it in 15 seconds.  Not always needed, but when it is it's very useful.

 

Sounds interesting, I'll need to look into this more.

 

We use the database....well...as a database.  We tie all our primary control and section corners in State Plane and have built a state plane survey database.  Then, we we're getting ready to start a new project we set our project transformation settings(to get us to ground) import our pertinent section corners and control points switch the transformation settings back and now we're good to go.  This has saved us countless hours.

There are other advantages, but those are the few off the top of my head.

 

Thanks for the reply, I'll definitely dive into the survey database more.

 

 
Posted : January 25, 2023 12:04 pm
Jitterboogie reacted
(@bstrand)
Posts: 1665
Mapper of Things Member
 

Posted by: @wa-id-surveyor
We use the database....well...as a database.

I learned something new about the databases just other day that was kind of sad and amusing.  Every place I've worked had a survey database folder in their blank folder template for new projects.  So, we'd set up a database for every project which is probably pretty normal.  What isn't normal is having to navigate to and change the working folder every time we wanted to work on a different project.

Apparently there is a way to display all of your databases in prospector and you can just open any them for editing right there.  I don't know if this sorcery has been around for a long time or what but it's one thing at least a few companies in this area should get on.

 
Posted : January 25, 2023 1:42 pm

Get the 2023 SurveyorConnect Wall Calendar

Page 2 / 3