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Subsidence

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R.J. Schneider
(@rj-schneider)
1,000+ posts Member

Found a good subsidence photo at a recent job.  Structure likely from the early '70s.

Just now looking at this, and the plywood, wondering if they didn't raise and collar this to keep it out of flood waters.  🤔 

Anyhow, hoping this was subsidence, since I titled the post subsidence.

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Topic starter Posted : January 14, 2022 8:12 pm
Bill93
(@bill93)
5,000+ posts Member

I would think subsidence would occur mostly at lower depths than the structure, so the top would still be near the surface level. That's an argument for a collar.

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Posted : January 14, 2022 8:19 pm
R.J. Schneider
(@rj-schneider)
1,000+ posts Member

Thanks, Bill. Made me do some looking. This is the area. 

https://txpub.usgs.gov/houston_subsidence/map.html

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Topic starter Posted : January 14, 2022 8:40 pm

holy cow
(@holy-cow)
10,000+ posts Member

@rj-schneider 

Dang.  I've been in that area.  But, about 35 years ago.  Spent quite a bit of time in Jersey Village and drove all around.

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Posted : January 14, 2022 10:22 pm
jacavell
(@jacavell)
10+ posts Member

@rj-schneider Looking at the bottom of the "cap" around the manhole shows the roughness one would see if only the sides were formed up for the concrete pour. Something changed, subsidence or rise of the structure or both. It also isn't recent as evidenced by the parking slab and fence nearby. That much subsidence would certainly affected them unevenly.

Another possibility is the cap was poured in place and the area was graded to the levels we see today with the slab &c. and the soil near the manhole eventually leveled and grass grew.

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Posted : January 15, 2022 7:01 am
GeeOddMike
(@geeoddmike)
1,000+ posts Member

This site might also be of interest:

https://hgsubsidence.org

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Posted : January 15, 2022 7:36 am

R.J. Schneider
(@rj-schneider)
1,000+ posts Member
Posted by: @jacavell

It also isn't recent as evidenced by the parking slab and fence nearby. That much subsidence would certainly affected them unevenly.

If it helps any, not this commercial site, but the commercial site to the North, I was on the crew when the building envelope was staked back in '13.  I can't picture this site in context, if I remember correctly this stretch of road was a lot of vacant property back then.

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Topic starter Posted : January 15, 2022 7:51 am
SPMPLS
(@spmpls)
500+ posts Member

Subsidence? That is just a little ground surface settlement. This is subsidence. Almost 30' of it between 1925 and 1977.

We had an area in California referred to as the "El Nido Bowl" subside over 2' from January 2008 to January 2010, which was before our drought period from 2011-2015.

Here is a vertical time series plot of a CORS - P565, located in the southern end of the San Joaquin Valley near the town of Delano.

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Posted : January 15, 2022 8:51 am
Williwaw, Brad Ott, R.J. Schneider and 1 people liked
holy cow
(@holy-cow)
10,000+ posts Member

Wonder what the elevation will be after the next BIG earthquake and most of California slides off into the Pacific Ocean. 🤣 🤣 🤣 

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Posted : January 15, 2022 9:06 am

John Putnam
(@john-putnam)
1,000+ posts Member

@spmpls 

Years ago, I ended up doing verification on a 450-mile LiDAR project because for the railroad because one of their surveyors thought they found a 30+ foot bust in that area when they ran levels off of an NGS benchmark.

While doing some photo control work for several segments of high-speed rail in the Fresno area I could make out significant subsidence in the just the couple of years since the projects primary control was run.

At most I would say the OP photo was settlement and not subsidence.  Subsidence is almost imperceivable at any given location, unless you are on fault line.

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Posted : January 15, 2022 9:50 am
Mike Marks
(@mike-marks)
1,000+ posts Member
Posted by: @holy-cow

Wonder what the elevation will be after the next BIG earthquake and most of California slides off into the Pacific Ocean. 🤣 🤣 🤣 

Not sure, the San Andreas fault and most others in California are lateral faults aligned roughly north-south so the Southern Coast of California will not disappear into the Pacific Ocean, rather Los Angeles will eventually slide past San Francisco.

 

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Posted : January 15, 2022 11:34 am
FL/GA
(@flga-2-2)
5,000+ posts Supporter

Might as well throw this in too...

https://6abc.com/tsunami-california-volcano-tonga/11472120/

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Posted : January 15, 2022 11:59 am

Mike Marks
(@mike-marks)
1,000+ posts Member

Just got an official Tsunami warning by email a few minutes ago (first time that's happened) saying be prepared to evacuate the marina if necessary.  They did evacuate the Berkley Marina this morning.  I think it's an abundance of caution because the first surge has already passed;  the latest tsunami coastal observations as of 11:15 a.m., San Diego had increased to 1.4 feet from 0.8 feet waves at 9 a.m. 

The 2011 Fukushima (Tōhoku-ok earthquake) tsunami was a big deal in San Diego;  docks were broken up, boats lost their moorings and minor shoreside damage.  The bay's shorelines became like 1-2knot rivers at times and surges came in for nearly 24 hours.  Exciting times.

SD 2011 tsunami

Here's an interesting factoid:  The safest place to be on a boat during a tsunami is not docked, moored or anchored in a bay, rather it's at sea, in at least 300 feet deep water and more than a few miles from shore and harbor entrances.  There you'll never even notice a tsunami as they'll only be a few inches high.

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Posted : January 15, 2022 1:21 pm
SPMPLS
(@spmpls)
500+ posts Member
Posted by: @john-putnam

At most I would say the OP photo was settlement and not subsidence.  Subsidence is almost imperceivable at any given location, unless you are on fault line.

Fault lines have very little to do with subsidence. First, the geology has to be prone to collapsing, removing the natural voids in the soil as it "pancakes" when the aquifer below is drawn down. Drought certainly exacerbates it as more groundwater is extracted because of the limited allocations from the Feds and State of surface water via the conveyance systems, but the biggest factor is land use.

The El Nido Bowl that I mentioned previously was not drought induced. The land use had changed from grazing lands to water thirsty crops, and the underlying conditions were perfect for subsidence as the production ag wells sucked the groundwater out of the aquifer below. Thus a 2 foot plus drop in 24 months. It is nowhere near any known fault lines, nor is the location of the utility pole I posted previously.

The lateral, secular movement at the faults can induce some minor vertical displacement, but that is not really subsidence.

This post was modified 6 days ago by SPMPLS
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Posted : January 17, 2022 4:21 pm
SPMPLS
(@spmpls)
500+ posts Member

Here is a time series plot of a CORS in the East Bay area (Alameda) that is very close to the Hayward Fault. As you can see it is moving quite rapidly (5 cm/year +/-) to the northwest, but the vertical time series, albeit noisy, is essentially stable. The geological conditions are not conducive to subsidence, so despite the rapid lateral movement, it is not sinking.

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Posted : January 17, 2022 4:36 pm

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