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Trimble Access duplicate point tolerance bug

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350RocketMike
(@350rocketmike)
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Another bug I've started noticing, that only seems to happen in integrated surveying mode...

If I reshoot a point with the original point number with intention to store as a check point..I have the tolerance set to 0.000 as shown in the attached pictures... it's just storing it without showing me the deltas. I can't tell what they were without going to the point manager or review job and checking there. 

Anyone know a way to fix this?

 

 
Posted : November 21, 2022 10:58 am
John Hamilton
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did you try store another?

 
Posted : November 21, 2022 1:19 pm
350RocketMike
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@john-hamilton 

No, I wanted it to show as a "check point" but it seems like it's treating it like I'm "storing another other than the point class shows up as "check" which I do want.

I don't quite understand the point of storing another. It just adds another useless coordinate to the point every time I backsight in 2 faces (options in that case are discard or store another). It's been working fine, up until lately. Not sure if it just started with the integrated, or the last update, or unrelated. 

I just want it to always show me the deltas when I shoot a check, hence why my duplicate point tolerance is set to 0.000. It's annoying to either stake out the point first or just shoot and then go into point manager to check it. 

 
Posted : November 21, 2022 1:29 pm

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Rover83
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I don't quite understand the point of storing another. It just adds another useless coordinate to the point every time I backsight in 2 faces (options in that case are discard or store another).

Store another adds an observation that can then be used during post-processing for QA/QC or adjustments. Take a look at the data in TBC and you'll see where the additional shots go.

In the case of terrestrial observations, F1 and F2 observations are used to compute mean turned angles in the raw data (again, needed for QA/QC and adjustments), and in the case of backsight observations, you'll see an orientation correction based upon the splits between the two to adjust for collimation error.

It is weird that it isn't giving you the out of tolerance message, though. If you're running integrated I would be sure to check both styles that are being used by it.

 
Posted : November 21, 2022 2:13 pm
John Hamilton
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I was taken aback by that statement, "I don't quite understand the point of storing another".

Redundant data is always good to have, especially for an adjustment. I never understand the users who give points a different name every time they shoot it, or users who just download coordinates from the DC. 

 

 

 
Posted : November 21, 2022 2:30 pm
350RocketMike
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@rover83 

I'm sure it would make more sense to me if I had experience with TBC, but at this point even our office only has basic knowledge. I don't think they would be able to explain when it would be preferable to "store another" instead of "store as check". I've just always been storing as a check and it's always given me the deltas. The first thing I did when it acted up was check the survey styles for both the rover duplicate point tolerance and my s5. The IS rover (integrated mode) survey style has just very basic settings, basically just the 2 survey styles used in conjunction and the vertical offset from prism to GPS. All the tolerances are set to 0.000 Hz and vertical and auto average is turned off on both. 

Another thing that randomly changed a while back is the "reset rtk" option disappeared from the gnss satellites page. I used to be able to just click the gnss icon and then "reset rtk" at the bottom to lose lock, and regain lock by the time I backed out and changed my point number back to the previous so I could average them....now I have to toggle through the sv sets or hold my hand above the river to lose lock. Either one takes about 3 times as long. My coworkers tsc7 still has the reset rtk option on his. This change in behavior actually happened before the last software update. 

This post was modified 2 weeks ago by 350RocketMike
 
Posted : November 21, 2022 2:37 pm

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350RocketMike
(@350rocketmike)
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@john-hamilton 

So can you explain the difference to me between "store as check" and "store another" besides the label? I really don't believe I was complaining about redundant data as the entire question is about storing a check shot. 

Not to mention that my complaint is about it not showing me the deltas of my check point and the reason I am trying to "store as check" is that I fully agree about using a new name over and over again for checks. It gets messy when there is 7000+ points in some subdivisions I work in. 



 

This post was modified 2 weeks ago by 350RocketMike
 
Posted : November 21, 2022 2:56 pm
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MightyMoe
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Posted by: @350rocketmike

@john-hamilton 

So can you explain the difference to me between "store as check" and "store another" besides the label? I really don't believe I was complaining about redundant data as the entire question is about storing a check shot. 

Not to mention that my complaint is about it not showing me the deltas of my check point and the reason I am trying to "store as check" is that I fully agree about using a new name over and over again for checks. It gets messy when there is 7000+ points in some subdivisions I work in. 



 

Won't be for long, it's all going machine control from here on out. Grading, Curb, Sidewalks, all that's left is monumentation and maybe sewer. 

 

 
Posted : November 21, 2022 3:23 pm
Steinhoff
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Posted by: @350rocketmike

So can you explain the difference to me between "store as check" and "store another" besides the label? I really don't believe I was complaining about redundant data as the entire question is about storing a check shot. 

Observations marked as "check" are not included in adjustments within TBC.

 
Posted : November 21, 2022 3:54 pm

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350RocketMike
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@steinhoff 

So in my case, I'm almost always going to be storing as a check. 

Either way, I don't get the option to pick anymore because it's just storing it as a check and not bringing up the screen where you select from check, store another, overwrite, etc. 

 
Posted : November 21, 2022 4:19 pm
Steinhoff
(@steinhoff)
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Posted by: @350rocketmike

So in my case, I'm almost always going to be storing as a check. 

If I'm reading between the lines correctly this is mostly for construction work, right? If that's the case, you should be fine. If your control network isn't already tight you're kinda SOL anyway. Dangerous to readjust control midway through construction.

EDIT: at the same time "check" observations can always been converted to "normal" observations to be used in TBC anyway...

 
Posted : November 21, 2022 4:29 pm
350RocketMike
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@steinhoff 

Yes, most of my work is in subdivisions and we have the control set in UTM and any adjustments made before we start layout. 

I'm doing even more "check shots" now because I'm shooting a quick gnss check shot on every point just for redundancy. For these checks I store through the staking menu but on control I would prefer to measure a normal sideshot and store as a check. 

 
Posted : November 21, 2022 4:39 pm
Steinhoff reacted

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Rover83
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@350rocketmike Either way, I don't get the option to pick anymore because it's just storing it as a check and not bringing up the screen where you select from check, store another, overwrite, etc.

At first I thought it might be because the original point is classed as a stake point, but Access will still test a stake point using the duplicate tolerance.

I still think it might be the Duplicate Point Tolerance of either the Conventional or GNSS survey style that is being used for the integrated survey. Check both of those survey styles, and if they are set up correctly, then it's time for a support ticket.

 

Another thing that randomly changed a while back is the "reset rtk" option disappeared from the gnss satellites page....now I have to toggle through the sv sets or hold my hand above the river to lose lock.

I've never seen a menu option randomly disappear without an update.

In any case, no need to do any toggling or manually break lock. Menu -> Measure -> RTK Initialization, tap Reset.

 
Posted : November 21, 2022 4:39 pm
350RocketMike
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@rover83 

I never noticed that rtk initialization toggle before. I will look for that next time I get the GPS out. 

I did double check the tolerance setting for both again after you mentioned it the first time and as I thought both were 0.000 Hz and vertical just like the picture I posted. 

Maybe it is only the staked and stored points that it wasn't giving me the option and Deltas page...I know the last couple times it happened it was a staked and stored point, but I thought it happened with at least one that wasn't...but now I'm trying to remember for sure. 

 
Posted : November 21, 2022 4:47 pm
Jitterboogie
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I'll take a stab

 

maybe the math engines 8s at it's asymptotically limited ability of the shot is so close...

I know when the curve routine is handed a shot that crosses that tolerance (or used to, I'm out of that loop since the past two updates....could be  coded away at this point) it literally crashes and shuts down.

And if you didn't go into the file to delete the offender data point it will continue to crash until you do.

🫣😶🤓

 
Posted : November 21, 2022 4:49 pm

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